The Used Game Debate

[Ridge]

Last year for awhile the Xbox One was going to not allow used games. After a combination of angry fans, and Sony (in my opinion) low balling the industry the decision was eventually made to allow used games on the Xbox One.

I was in the small minority(for once) of people. I thought used games should go away, and have been having a lot of fun talking to people with different opinions than me ever since.


So I think used games should go away. When you buy a game used all your money goes to Gamestop(or wherever) instead of the developers/publishers. If we all love this industry shouldn't we support it. Studios are always closing, people are always being laid off actually making games isn't fun for a lot of people right now. Getting rid of used games won't single handedly fix these problems, but it will definitely help. PC games can't be resold, and it is generally understood, same goes for digital content. Why should a physical copy be any different?

Agree? Disagree? Let's get a discussion going.

 

[sparkblade14]

Nope, it's human nature. Plain and simple, people want games for the lowest price. Wanna know the main reason why the PS4 has dominated the XB1? Price. Money makes the world go round, and Sony knew the overall user-base for this gen would decrease if used games weren't allowed. Gamers already get nickel and dime'd enough as it is. We're getting microtransactions for full-priced games. We're getting DLC and Limited Edition games before we even find out the most basic details about upcoming titles. Far Cry 4 just got announced and the first screenshot from the game is for a Limited Edition.

The gaming industry is as profitable as ever. Just look at GTA V breaking all entertainment (not just gaming) records. Just look at Activision spending an obscene amount trying to promote Destiny so it can become the next Halo.

 

[Ridge]

Nope, it's human nature. Plain and simple, people want games for the lowest price. Wanna know the main reason why the PS4 has dominated the XB1? Price. Money makes the world go round, and Sony knew the overall user-base for this gen would decrease if used games weren't allowed.

Would it have really went down? When the PlayStation 4 cost $100 less than the Xbox One and both allowed used games the PS4 jumped ahead. If both didn't allow used games Sony presumably would have still had the upper hand if it cost $100 less.

Gamers already get nickel and dime'd enough as it is. We're getting microtransactions for full-priced games. We're getting DLC and Limited Edition games before we even find out the most basic details about upcoming titles. Far Cry 4 just got announced and the first screenshot from the game is for a Limited Edition.

Games are cheaper now then they have ever been. Many SNES games were $69.99 or more; before inflation. Those games also couldn't do things our games today do, like go online, or have a physics engine, or have a polygon. Plus that is just for new AAA games, we have so many other options that still allow you to support a developer when you buy a game. PS+ sales are ridiculous. The sales, I'm not even talking about the free games. Plus things like Humble Bundles are almost stealing. You only get nickel and dime'd if you choose to. You don't have to buy the best edition of a game, or buy something the day it comes out, you choose to.

The gaming industry is as profitable as ever. Just look at GTA V breaking all entertainment (not just gaming) records. Just look at Activision spending an obscene amount trying to promote Destiny so it can become the next Halo.

GTA is the extreme side of the spectrum. What about the massive layoffs we read about every other weak? What about when THQ was picked apart a year or two ago? Hell, even Nintendo is losing money..

 

[Haze]

Nope, it's human nature. Plain and simple, people want games for the lowest price. Wanna know the main reason why the PS4 has dominated the XB1? Price. Money makes the world go round, and Sony knew the overall user-base for this gen would decrease if used games weren't allowed. Gamers already get nickel and dime'd enough as it is. We're getting microtransactions for full-priced games. We're getting DLC and Limited Edition games before we even find out the most basic details about upcoming titles. Far Cry 4 just got announced and the first screenshot from the game is for a Limited Edition.

The gaming industry is as profitable as ever. Just look at GTA V breaking all entertainment (not just gaming) records. Just look at Activision spending an obscene amount trying to promote Destiny so it can become the next Halo.

Well said and totally agree. I don't think used games should go away. Not everybody can afford a new game.

 

[Oberon]

I do get the point on not allowing used game sales but as above,I much prefer to allow it.
Not only can not everyone afford new games but it would also not allow you to borrow,loan,trade or sell and recoup some funds to put towards your next purchase.(Another reason why I dislike digital only games).

So a clear and defo 'MUST ALLOW USED GAMES' from me.

 

[Ridge]

It seems like the common point in all posts above for used games is "not everyone can afford a new game" so I'll ask you guys a question.

Do you agree with pirating games? Or any sort of content really? Obviously not, piracy is nothing but stealing content. Well guess what? A video game developer/publisher sees just as much money when you buy a used game as when you straight up steal a game. So of course this is the kind of thing they will want to get rid of. You just feel better about it because you are giving SOMEBODY money..

Also gaming isn't a right, nobody is entitled to play the newest AAA games. There are free PS+ games, humble bundles, sales; several ways to buy games and still support the people who made the content you are enjoying.

 

[Oberon]

A video game developer/publisher sees just as much money when you buy a used game as when you straight up steal a game.

The difference ofcourse is that pirating is illegal and the dev never got any money to begin with from a pirate copy.And yes,the dev and publisher dont see money from used games but then neither do car manufacturers,boats,motorcycles,household appliances,toys,bikes,houses and pretty much every other used thing too.Should we stop used sales of those too?
This is the world and I think 'most' in the game business make quite a bit of money are just greedy so want more by stopping used sales,or not allowing used games to work in consoles.

Are used games sales halting the game industry? No,doesnt seem like it to me.
Or for that matter pirate games? Doesnt seem like it either as the games industry is as big as ever.

 

[Ridge]

And yes,the dev and publisher dont see money from used games but then neither do car manufacturers,boats,motorcycles,household appliances,toys,bikes,houses and pretty much every other used thing too.Should we stop used sales of those too?

None of those industries work the same as the gaming industry. Those industries work largely on a price and margin per unit model. Your car cost $25000 to make, so you make $15000 when you sell it for $40000. All the industries you named work this way.

Video games have huge development budgets, and an almost negligible per unit budget. This makes it difficult to assess how much a game actually costs to make.

Let's say I spend $25000 making a game, same cost as the car in the previous example. I can't just sell it for $40000 and make $15000. I'll have to throw it on Steam or something. Let's say the game costs $20 and steam takes 30%. I would make $14 per copy. If I sell one you could say it cost me $25000 to make that one unit, so I'm down $24986. On the other hand if I sell 3000 copies you could say the cost per unit was $8.34 per copy, $14.34 after taking Steam's cut into account. So after selling 3000 units I will have made $42000 or $17000 profit. If the game is physical the same concept applies, just I end up with a much smaller cut per copy.

So all these industries just don't work the same at their core, so why should the same policies necessarily apply?

 

[Dmadman72]

To each their own. I have every game i have bought for the PS3, xbox 360 and wii. I have bought used games from video stores when they were going out of business but that's it. I have never bought a used game from gamestop and never will. There is only a $3 to $5 price difference and I don't feel like supporting thieves. You buy a game for $60,walk out the store and back in and they give you $30 and then promptly put it back on the shelves for $55. Video game developers should step up and put a disclaimer on the box that states "NOT FOR RESALE UNLESS AUTHORIZED" They could then force game resellers to re register the game and make sure they are getting there cut. After all they are doing all the work. Gamestop is nothing more then a pimp getting rich off the backs of others. Of course that's just my opinion and I could be wrong

 

[Ridge]

I was trying to not single Gamespot out.... but in my mind their practices are the worst.

 

[Oberon]

Agree on Gamestop,or EB Games as they are called here. You can buy new games cheaper in many stores than they sell the same used copies.
I do go in occasionally,for a laugh,and..every now and then they do have something going cheap,usually accessories etc,not games though.

Fair enough on the rundown of used games prices compared to the others I mentioned Ridge.But as I said in my first post too,the price is just one factor.
Its also the fact you would'nt be able to borrow,loan,trade or sell them,which can be put towards your next purchase.And so another reason I dont favor digital only games,but that's another topic.

 

[Ciel]

Gamestop employee bias incoming:

Despite the arguments that are being made here, I still do not see what the big deal is. Video games are a part of consumer culture. They are, as a result, a product to be sold, bought, and traded. It is that simple. If I buy a game at full-price and want to sell it to my friend, I am going to. Think of stores like Gamestop as one big garage sale. Developers will not see a dime of this transaction because they already made their money off of the initial transaction (i.e. me buying the game at full price). How much money do we need to give them, exactly--let us not get ahead of ourselves here. The gaming industry is more profitable than cinema and music--there is really no need to put a halt on selling used games and doing so would be the result of a false sense of entitlement; which is exactly why Microsoft reversed their call on it.

The video-game industry might function differently than other industries, but again they are producing products that are to be circulating in consumer culture. I contend that the industry does in fact benefit from used game sales, despite not seeing any revenue. Really, if it was not for used game sales I would not have played a handful of series that I now buy the latest, brand new, releases of. I think a lot of people can ascent to this. If people were unable to played "used" games on their consoles for whatever reason, then companies would be forced to keep pressing old titles. Ergo, wasting money. Or... just not releasing them at all--sorry would-be interested buyers of future titles. A person would see the original Mass Effect still being sold for $60. Someone who thinks they might be interested in Mass Effect, but is uncertain about it, would not waste their money. But if that person can buy the game for $5, its sequel for $10, and its third sequel for $20... you bet your sweet buns they are going to buy the latest for full price--thanks used game sales!

So I think used games should go away. When you buy a game used all your money goes to Gamestop(or wherever) instead of the developers/publishers. If we all love this industry shouldn't we support it. Studios are always closing, people are always being laid off actually making games isn't fun for a lot of people right now. Getting rid of used games won't single handedly fix these problems, but it will definitely help. PC games can't be resold, and it is generally understood, same goes for digital content. Why should a physical copy be any different?

You do understand those companies closing down and those employees getting laid off are the result of bad sales due to bad games, correct? Ridding the world of used-game sales is not going to fix a bad game. And most games on PC people buy at a discounted price anyway. Steam also has that game-share thing now... you are being mislead.

 

[Ridge]

there is really no need to put a halt on selling used games and doing so would be the result of a false sense of entitlement; which is exactly why Microsoft reversed their call on it.

Doesn't the question then become whose entitlement is more important? The developers/publishers feeling entitled to be compensated for a product they made, or the consumer feeling entitled to save $10 at Gamestop so they can cut out the people who made a product they enjoy.

The video-game industry might function differently than other industries, but again they are producing products that are to be circulating in consumer culture. I contend that the industry does in fact benefit from used game sales, despite not seeing any revenue. Really, if it was not for used game sales I would not have played a handful of series that I now buy the latest, brand new, releases of. I think a lot of people can ascent to this. If people were unable to played "used" games on their consoles for whatever reason, then companies would be forced to keep pressing old titles. Ergo, wasting money. Or... just not releasing them at all--sorry would-be interested buyers of future titles. A person would see the original Mass Effect still being sold for $60. Someone who thinks they might be interested in Mass Effect, but is uncertain about it, would not waste their money. But if that person can buy the game for $5, its sequel for $10, and its third sequel for $20... you bet your sweet buns they are going to buy the latest for full price--thanks used game sales!

You started this paragraph off with the equivalent of "This industry is different, but I want the same rules to apply".... which isn't a great start. Prices would go down over time for everything regardless of whether used is a thing or not. I don't agree with your argument at all.

You do understand those companies closing down and those employees getting laid off are the result of bad sales due to bad games, correct? Ridding the world of used-game sales is not going to fix a bad game.

In a lot of cases you are right, bad games didn't sell. That isn't the problem, some things deserve to fail. The problem is when even good studios fall apart. I'll agree used games isn't going to single fix this problem all by itself, but it may help.

And most games on PC people buy at a discounted price anyway. Steam also has that game-share thing now... you are being mislead.

Many PC games are bought discounted, you're right. But that's my point. Wait for something to go on sale so the developers/publishers get a cut. Much better scenario than used games. Also Steam family sharing is essentially a borrowing service, nothing to do with used games. How am I being mislead?

Overall very well thought out points. You make this fun.

 

[Ciel]

Doesn't the question then become whose entitlement is more important? The developers/publishers feeling entitled to be compensated for a product they made, or the consumer feeling entitled to save $10 at Gamestop so they can cut out the people who made a product they enjoy.

No. Shifting the question would still be missing the point. Again, the developers and publishers were already compensated.

You started this paragraph off with the equivalent of "This industry is different, but I want the same rules to apply".... which isn't a great start. Prices would go down over time for everything regardless of whether used is a thing or not. I don't agree with your argument at all.

False. You seem to be under the impression that industries do not function the same despite being different. For most the most part, the essences of any industry is the equivalent to another. Why are you placing video-games on such a high pedestal? Prices would go down, sure I can concede that, but the cost of printing, shipping, and so forth of any particular game would eventually out-way way any possible revenue. They would also more likely than not have to continue to market these games as a means of pushing more of them, which would also cost money. They also have to pay stores to keep them on the shelves. This adds up. Again, this industry is the most lucrative of all the popular entertainment shenanigans right now, despite used game sales. Why are you ready to give them more money?

In a lot of cases you are right, bad games didn't sell. That isn't the problem, some things deserve to fail. The problem is when even good studios fall apart. I'll agree used games isn't going to single fix this problem all by itself, but it may help.

I fail to see, save for of a studio was an indie developer, how a good studio making good games, is going to fall a part. Bad marketing? OK, sure whatever, it happens--yes--but why is this the fault of used game sales? The argument is a bordering on a slippery slope.

Many PC games are bought discounted, you're right. But that's my point. Wait for something to go on sale so the developers/publishers get a cut. Much better scenario than used games. Also Steam family sharing is essentially a borrowing service, nothing to do with used games. How am I being mislead?

You really think waiting for games to go on sale is ethical... but buying used game is not? I can see why you might think that--because indeed the publishers and so forth are making money, but now they are making less! I would imagine you would be against this considering they are making less of a profit, do not make the return cost, and cannot fund future projects, or pay employees. Steam Family Sharing also known as "sharing" is... yes... similar to used-game sales. How is this and why is this relevant to the topic at hand? Because the crux of your argument is that because of used-game sales developers/publishers are not making [more] money. Who makes money when people share games? If you are against used-game sales for this reason alone--which seems to be the case--then you would have to be against sharing games with friends and family... just like Microsoft was. No?

 

[don_bidarian]

Last year for awhile the Xbox One was going to not allow used games. After a combination of angry fans, and Sony (in my opinion) low balling the industry the decision was eventually made to allow used games on the Xbox One.

I was in the small minority(for once) of people. I thought used games should go away, and have been having a lot of fun talking to people with different opinions than me ever since.


So I think used games should go away. When you buy a game used all your money goes to Gamestop(or wherever) instead of the developers/publishers. If we all love this industry shouldn't we support it. Studios are always closing, people are always being laid off actually making games isn't fun for a lot of people right now. Getting rid of used games won't single handedly fix these problems, but it will definitely help. PC games can't be resold, and it is generally understood, same goes for digital content. Why should a physical copy be any different?

Agree? Disagree? Let's get a discussion going.

Let me answer your question with another question:

Would you agree if resell of car, house or basically anything weren't allowed?
What makes you think video game industry is any different?

They make a product, they sell it, after that what the owner does with the product should not be publisher/developer/maker's concern.
Same is with cars, houses, furniture, hardware, cellphones, guitars and many other things that can be bought used or new.

 

[Ridge]

Let me answer your question with another question:

Would you agree if resell of car, house or basically anything weren't allowed?
What makes you think video game industry is any different?

They make a product, they sell it, after that what the owner does with the product should not be publisher/developer/maker's concern.
Same is with cars, houses, furniture, hardware, cellphones, guitars and many other things that can be bought used or new.

In response to cars I made a very specific example a few posts up, read that and ask any questions after if you have them. The same concept applies to houses or pretty much anything else you mentioned.

Ciel- The time it would take to rep!y to you from my phone is ridiculous.. I'll get back to you tomorrow probably.

 

[Ciel]

They make a product, they sell it, after that what the owner does with the product should not be publisher/developer/maker's concern.
Same is with cars, houses, furniture, hardware, cellphones, guitars and many other things that can be bought used or new.

He has responded to this. Although I would be curious to know why it is O.K. for DVD/Blu-ray products to be sold used... or if it is at all rather...

 

[Ridge]

He has responded to this. Although I would be curious to know why it is O.K. for DVD/Blu-ray products to be sold used... or if it is at all rather...

The only income video games have is selling games. By the time a movie gets to the point that you can own it it has already had a theatrical release where it (in most cases) made all its money back and then some. So although you could argue used movies is the same thing it really isn't. DVD/blu-ray sales are a secondary revenue stream, where as selling to consumers is a game's only revenue stream. The industries aren't the same..

 

[Ciel]

The only income video games have is selling games.

And accessories*

By the time a movie gets to the point that you can own it it has already had a theatrical release where it (in most cases) made all its money back and then some. So although you could argue used movies is the same thing it really isn't. DVD/blu-ray sales are a secondary revenue stream, where as selling to consumers is a game's only revenue stream. The industries aren't the same..

Are you aware of what you are saying? All the money from a game also goes back to its cost when thousands, even millions, of people spend $60 for it. I am not a mathmetician, but I am pretty sure $60 x A is more than $10 x A. Of course there are other accessory stuff that comes afterward for both movie related things and video game hardware. Marketing costs, too... but come on.

The numbers:

Video Game Industry - $76 billion globally (2013)
Movie Industry - $35.9 billion globally (2013)

Well, shit--it nearly doubles!

Sources:
http://www.the-numbers.com/market/
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/cinemacon-global-box-office-hits-690938
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_industry

 

[Dmadman72]

Just to clarify my post I don't believe in anyway used game sales should be stopped. While I don't buy them I would be upset if my son couldn't play them on his console because the game was console/gamer tag locked. I believe though that the companies that create the games get a portion of the resale. Look at it like syndication if you will. I do buy a lot of games from EB games/Gamestop and am glad the store exists.