The Used Game Debate

[Ciel]

Devs can lock out whatever they want. If you don’t like it you don’t have to support their product. You bought those games because you wanted to play them, and they decided how much of the experience you are entitled to for your purchase. Boycott if you don’t like it.

The people who makes games see just as much money whether you pirate their game or buy it used. What’s the difference? Just because you gave somebody money you feel better about it? I would much rather my money go to the people who made my games than the kid working at Gamestop for minimum wage+ lanyards. They can always go work at Mcdonalds for minimum wage without lanyards. Also I think the industry will be fine without dedicated game stores. Bestbuy, Walmart,Target etc.. all will still have games.

1.) If players boycott a game and refuse to play/buy it then developers are going to have a bigger problem on their hands than used game sales--assuming used game sales are a problem which, again, I do not find them to be.

2.) Ignorant second half of the comment aside, I thought your problem with used-game sales is that companies were not seeing enough money. Are you for or against used games...? Did I miss something along the way...?

 

[Ridge]

2.) Ignorant second half of the comment aside, I thought your problem with used-game sales is that companies were not seeing enough money. Are you for or against used games...? Did I miss something along the way...?

My problem with used game sales is that the companies who made the product don't see any of the sale. Where did I (accidentally) imply I was for used games?

 

[Cpt Blackadder]

Also I think the industry will be fine without dedicated game stores. Bestbuy, Walmart,Target etc.. all will still have games.

Here in the Uk we have 1 mainstream highstreet retailer, called GAME. If they went so would the market. They very nearly DID go last year as well, so we were looking over the cliff face here. Things outside the USA are different. ( shocker i know ) LOL

 

[Cpt Blackadder]

My problem with used game sales is that the companies who made the product don't see any of the sale. Where did I (accidentally) imply I was for used games?

Another point, you probably have an answer for this too ( LOL ) used books, cds, cars etc don't give money back to the author, maker, artists, but everyone gets along fine, so why should the games market be any different ?

You keep saying that they don't get their money back by people buying used games, but they WILL, if a used game is an entry for many to see what these companies games are like so they can then buy brand new NEXT time.

Example i bought Uncharted1 second hand as i wasn't sure about the series. I loved that game SOOO much i bought UC2, UC3, The last of us, and ALL the DLC that goes with those games, just from the initial step of UC1 second hand.

I'm sure there are MANY who could//say they have done the same thing.

Point is your continually looking at this argument from an eliist, ( only those that can afford it can play them ) point of view, which will then rightly or wrongly mean a lot of the fan based ( lets face it are underage kids who shouldn't even play these games let alone buy them ) are pushed out of the market, and the industry will then be cutting off it's own nose to spite it's face for the elitist few who can afford it, which is a lot less than it would be now.

PLUS, my other argument with this is, i personally would be less inclind to try a new IP if i couldn't sell my game on if i didn't like it. I look at reviews etc to choose but it's only when you get the game you'll know if you like it or not.

This would squeeze out many small developers and again the industry is cutting it's own nose off and all the game we will then get will play it safe and be the same.

 

[Strykstar]

Here in the Uk we have 1 mainstream highstreet retailer, called GAME. If they went so would the market. They very nearly DID go last year as well, so we were looking over the cliff face here. Things outside the USA are different. ( shocker i know ) LOL

GAME is also present in Portugal, it's the *only* place you have that buys used games, if they went, the only way to sell games would be person-to-person with all the inherent risks to that.

 

[Ridge]

Another point, you probably have an answer for this too ( LOL ) used books, cds, cars etc don't give money back to the author, maker, artists, but everyone gets along fine, so why should the games market be any different ?

I had a detailed explanation for cars last page, I'll paste it here.

None of those industries work the same as the gaming industry. Those industries work largely on a price and margin per unit model. Your car cost $25000 to make, so you make $15000 when you sell it for $40000. All the industries you named work this way.

Video games have huge development budgets, and an almost negligible per unit budget. This makes it difficult to assess how much a game actually costs to make.

Let's say I spend $25000 making a game, same cost as the car in the previous example. I can't just sell it for $40000 and make $15000. I'll have to throw it on Steam or something. Let's say the game costs $20 and steam takes 30%. I would make $14 per copy. If I sell one you could say it cost me $25000 to make that one unit, so I'm down $24986. On the other hand if I sell 3000 copies you could say the cost per unit was $8.34 per copy, $14.34 after taking Steam's cut into account. So after selling 3000 units I will have made $42000 or $17000 profit. If the game is physical the same concept applies, just I end up with a much smaller cut per copy.

So all these industries just don't work the same at their core, so why should the same policies necessarily apply?

As for CDs(or music in general) the artists also get money from radio play, touring, TV appearances etc..Where as developers can only really get revenue from the sale of the unit itself, as well as DLC and other stuff contingent on that initial sale.
Books are actually a better comparison than most, but the budget is where it differs. At the smallest level both game development and writing a book could be as small as one guy typing away on his computer, there isn't really a budget per-say. But it differs greatly on the high end. At the most the budget of a book is to pay the author, a cut for the publisher/editor and maybe a little advertising money. But it still rarely(if ever) goes anywhere near the million dollar mark. But a high end game could easily have thousands of people working on it and a budget in the millions. Games have a much greater uphill battle to overcome.

You keep saying that they don't get their money back by people buying used games, but they WILL, if a used game is an entry for many to see what these companies games are like so they can then buy brand new NEXT time.

Example i bought Uncharted1 second hand as i wasn't sure about the series. I loved that game SOOO much i bought UC2, UC3, The last of us, and ALL the DLC that goes with those games, just from the initial step of UC1 second hand.

I'm sure there are MANY who could//say they have done the same thing.

There are many who use this example, and I see where you're coming from. But if somebody buys the first entry into a series used they've already set the precedent that used is what they like to do. It is easier to make the assumption they'll buy later entries into the series used as well. Especially if a sequel or two have already been out for a little while.

Point is your continually looking at this argument from an eliist, ( only those that can afford it can play them ) point of view, which will then rightly or wrongly mean a lot of the fan based ( lets face it are underage kids who shouldn't even play these games let alone buy them ) are pushed out of the market, and the industry will then be cutting off it's own nose to spite it's face for the elitist few who can afford it, which is a lot less than it would be now.

I'm really trying not to come off as an elitist jerk, oh well..Most kids have their parent's buy them the games they want, or if they are old enough to have a part time job need to learn at some point that sometimes you need to save a little bit to buy something.. I don't see the problem with this. (But I think I see what you mean when you say elitist)

PLUS, my other argument with this is, i personally would be less inclind to try a new IP if i couldn't sell my game on if i didn't like it. I look at reviews etc to choose but it's only when you get the game you'll know if you like it or not.

This would squeeze out many small developers and again the industry is cutting it's own nose off and all the game we will then get will play it safe and be the same.

"Small developers" don't have to worry about this, because they don't front the money for a physical product at all. They stick with Steam, or digital on a console at best..

 

[Cpt Blackadder]

I do get where your coming from with all this ridge, and i've not got a problem with it myself, just i think if we did go down this road of brand new games only, there would ultimately be far less choice, far less innovation, every developer would have to play it safe, they would actually end up receiving less money as fewer people would be into gaming as they couldn't afford it. ( remember gaming is also about other merchandise like books, posters, guides etc ).

I know i personally wouldn't have been able to experience about 2 3rd's of the games i have managed to play, but where i can i give thanks to the devs i think make great games with my hard earned cash ( ND, Santa Monica, Ubisoft ) However not all developers are the same. Giving the developers the money they are due is all well and good, but i fear all they'd do with it is make themselves richer than actually give us better quality products. Competition drives people to excel and all that.

The worst culprit for this is Activivsion. The BILLIONS !!!! they have made out of the consumers but we still get the same rubbish, laggy online service, whereas other dev's who've not made as much Guerilla, ND do.

Nothing in my experience says the dev's / publishers would make anything better if they did actually get all the money they were due, on top of the millions they already do. Until we can all feel like we would, used games stay IMO.

 

[Ridge]

I do get where your coming from with all this ridge, and i've not got a problem with it myself

Then I feel like we're kind of done this conversation.. We're two intelligent people who see where the other is coming from and we just disagree.

Us doing laps repeating the same points worded a little differently won't change either of our minds. Agree to disagree?

 

[Abqu]

I both used and new. If there is a game that I'm genuinely excited about, I will buy it new. If there is a title that I passed over, and come back to it 3-4 years after it's released, I tend to go used since it's easier to find. I've never sold off any game. I still have all my NES cartridges.

 

[Oberon]

I must give credit to Ridge in holding his position on this,as he seems the only one here who prefers the new only side.
Also,I must point out that this has gotta be my fav thread on these forums.The replies make for interesting,fun and sometimes amusing reading.
Just proves we have a great community of people here.

OK...carry on

 

[Ridge]

I must give credit to Ridge in holding his position on this,as he seems the only one here who prefers the new only side.
Also,I must point out that this has gotta be my fav thread on these forums.The replies make for interesting,fun and sometimes amusing reading.
Just proves we have a great community of people here.

OK...carry on

I said way back in the first post I knew I was in the minority on this one..I kind of knew what I was starting. There are smarter people here than most places I start this, so that was unexpected.
This ended up becoming one of my favorite threads to check up on here as well.

 

[Cpt Blackadder]

Then I feel like we're kind of done this conversation.. We're two intelligent people who see where the other is coming from and we just disagree.

Us doing laps repeating the same points worded a little differently won't change either of our minds. Agree to disagree?

Yep, agree to disagree, but i do love a good debate, like this, so thank you for raising the question in the first place

 

[firelily99]

Why shouldn't the consumer have the option to buy used video games? Cars, books, etc, etc. can be purchased used so games should be too. Really if they had been smart they might have made it an option with the consoles but they missed the boat on it.

 

[Ridge]

Why shouldn't the consumer have the option to buy used video games? Cars, books, etc, etc. can be purchased used so games should be too. Really if they had been smart they might have made it an option with the consoles but they missed the boat on it.

Long story short the industries work differently. It's explained earlier in the thread..

 

[Derri]

Personally I believe that used games have a good place in the market. I cannot afford that kind of money for every new game so I'll either often wait until a price drop or if I see a game on a site selling cheaply then I'll often pick it up. I also tend to buy used if I know a game isn't gong to be overly spectacular e.g. The Amazing Spider Man 1 --> I bought that second hand, had a decent play-through and then re-traded it in to a local asda who actually gave me exactly what I paid for it.

There are a lot of things people are entitled to if they can’t afford them. Gaming isn’t one of them. Also gaming is cheaper than ever, there is stuff in whatever price range people can manage. People aren’t just entitled to AAA new releases because they want them. You can wait for a sale, or just play Candy Crush if that’s all you can afford.

Isn't this a little arrogant Ridge? I mean I am student so my income generally isn't too high and I do have lot of expenses so when I do buy games I do want to find the best deal e.g. not paying £60 which is often Game.co.uk asking price (other high street retailers are cheaper so they're my first port of call) and while I do buy many games at full price those are the ones I know I'm going to enjoy. Take my example above about Spiderman, I knew I'd have fun with it but I knew it wasn't all that great and was often very linear so I deicide to wait, picked it up very cheap and in the end got my money back.

So in the end it was a 'win win' situations for me.

I make myself sound like a 'used game addict' but in truth I've only ever bought a dozen or so used games in the last couple of years. Quite often I've actually bought the DLC that's came out for that particuar game. So in a sense I do end up supporting the devs in a small way.

However its like selling used CDs or DVDs or lending a game you no longer play to a friends...It all falls under the same scope regardless of industry.

 

[RobDaCool]

I always look for the cheapest games, I mean I do have three car payments, two mortgages and two kids in private school, add that up that's about three times more then I make a year. I need cheap, used games.

 

[Derri]

I always look for the cheapest games, I mean I do have three car payments, two mortgages and two kids in private school, add that up that's about three times more then I make a year. I need cheap, used games.

Exactly, I don't feel bad for looking out for myself. Because if we had to choose we'd choose our Education and in your case, Family. So used games allow us to do both.

 

[Ridge]

You guys all seem proud to not support the industry...

 

[Derri]

You guys all seem proud to not support the industry...

Because I buy the occasional game pre-owned I'm totally against supporting the industry?

Honestly you make it sound likes its a massive deal and I quite frankly hate people like you who evidently look down on people who support used games.

 

[Ciel]

You guys all seem proud to not support the industry...

You seem proud to ignore viable, coherent, logically valid and sound arguments. The debate can go either way, sure, but the argument for used games is the better. Come to the dark side!