The Used Game Debate

[Ciel]

I believe though that the companies that create the games get a portion of the resale.

If I am recalling correctly, I believe it was confirmed a year or so ago that they in fact get no money from used game sales. Unless they are just lying--which is possible--and the money they do get back is just "minimal." It makes more sense that they would not see any money though from the re-selling of their titles. Once something has been bought at full-price it essentially becomes the property of whoever owns it and so forth.

 

[don_bidarian]

In response to cars I made a very specific example a few posts up, read that and ask any questions after if you have them. The same concept applies to houses or pretty much anything else you mentioned.

Ciel- The time it would take to rep!y to you from my phone is ridiculous.. I'll get back to you tomorrow probably.

I'm sorry I skipped several comments I didnt see this question and its answer. I read your answer and I agree gaming could be different than housing or car manufacturing.

But would you agree gaming is similar to movie or music industry? I can borrow my friends' movies, sell my music collection etc... (Which you already covered your answer for movies)

Also there is one matter of ownership. when someone "sells" me something, the product is all mine, I have the right to use it, resell it, burn it, destroy it, feed it to the dog etc... whatever I do with the product after that should be no one's concern. Hell if I can even sell it double the price than I originally bought, then good for me.
Its called free market.

If what I'm buying is not mine, then something is wrong with the sentence, maybe we shouldn't call it "buying a game" and call it "renting a game for full retail price"

Reality is used games market does not affect the industry in a negative way, the industry is becoming lazy, thats why they are trying to pull this that if they go bankrupt because of their crappy and repetative games, it is used games fault. First it was piracy and DRM bullshit, now they are blaming used games market for that. but we see games like GTA V made billions in matter of days with no problem, and i'm pretty sure second hand GTA V is still pretty hot in the market.

 

[Titan]

GTA is the extreme side of the spectrum. What about the massive layoffs we read about every other weak? What about when THQ was picked apart a year or two ago? Hell, even Nintendo is losing money..

The difference is THQ closed and Nintendo is losing money because of crappy business decisions. THQ was well known for mismanaging their company not because people were buying used games. Also, when I read about layoffs at a publisher or developer, I can see the hints of bad business practices or mismanagement of the business as the more underlying cause. What was that company that folded a year ago in Rhode Island run by an ex baseball player? They shut down because the guy running the company didn't know what he was doing. THQ folded because they didn't know what they were doing, making poor decisions with their biggest titles and just plain not innovating. They were left in the dust years ago

Now the problem with Nintendo is the WiiU. I'm sorry, I like the console and wish it was more successful but it is absolute crap at the same time. What Nintendo wanted to do was capitalize on the past success of the Wii and appeal to the core gamer at the same time. The problem with that is they wanted games like Call of Duty and Battlefield and steal MS's and Sony's thunder...but they were trying to do it with last gen tech. They also put too much emphasis on their new controller and it just wasn't picking up. Developers and publishers didn't see the potential in it and abandoned it all together. There's a very small amount of developers, besides Nintendo, who are developing for it. So again, its not used games that is causing Nintendo to lose money, its their poor business decisions.

Now I buy a lot of used games and its my right as a consumer to decide if I want something secondhand or new. More than half of my games in my PS3's library are used. Why? Well, I don't make a lot of money for one so it helps me to afford my hobby. Also, if the developers did their job and made a kickass game, I'll buy the DLC that they release and much more inclined to buy the next installment on launch day. I did it for Mass Effect and I bought all their other games as well as every DLC released for each game. Mass Effect I must have spent 200 bucks on between games, DLC and even merchandise (shirts, action figures. Yeah. Love Mass Effect ). Same with Dead Space. I bought the first one used, enjoyed it so much, I bought Dead Space 2 and 3 and bought DLC for them too. So its not like they lost money on me. Now its one of my favorite series and will purchase any Dead Space game that comes out, on launch day too.

 

[Ridge]

I'm way too many posts behind now for a point by point reply to be worth the time at this point.

Ciel- Overall, even if I don't agree with a lot of what you're saying I can acknowledge everything your saying is very well thought out and I see where you're coming from. I feel like we could repeat the same points (worded slightly differently of course) over and over. But there isn't really any point in doing this laps any more. Agree to disagree?

Other random points:
I look a games differently than a lot of you guys. When you walk into a store and buy a game what are you really buying? Do the case and disk really matter? Not really. In most you're buying the experience. Bare with me here. A game is an experience. Whether you buy a digital or physical copy you get the same experience. The fastest, most direct way to get this experience to the consumer is by having them download a digital copy. Many games come out only in this form (indies especially). Bigger games that come out as physical discs are still delivering you the same experience as the digital copy. But with these physical copies the company makes less money because they absorb the cost printing/transporting the discs, paying brick and mortar stores, etc.. all so they can get you the same experience, but on your preferred (borderline primitive) format. The disc just serves as a key to allow you access to the experience. Just like when you download a game you get the license to access that experience from your console/ account. You can't transfer that license to other people/consoles/accounts (with the odd exception). I don't see why the disc should be any different, it is simply a different key. The problem is the paradigm with console gamers is different.

Also I think is used games are going to be allowed, online passes are the most fair compromise. Let's talk about it.

 

[Oberon]

Also I think is used games are going to be allowed, online passes are the most fair compromise. Let's talk about it.

This is the fairest way to compromise yes.
Obviously if you buy new,you are fine and have an active code to access online. If you buy used most likely it has already been user by the previous owner.If it has then you pay a small fee from PSN store to access online features.
Again,I would say this would only be acceptable for online MP ofcourse,as it has been already. So a buyer of any used game has the option to buy an online pass if they so want/need it.
But..EA have done away with them as Ubisoft are now to I believe.
What publisher is still using them on Playstation? Are there any left? I doubt they will bring this practice back again.

 

[JaydonTyler]

I always buy used games. I like to save money where I can and as long as the game works it's good enough for me. I can see your point. You want to support the ones who actually create the game and that makes sense. I do buy new games as well, so I support them also.

MY preference is definitely to go with used games. The only thing is you don't get activation codes when you go used. Gotta sacrifice somewhere though. That's how it works.

 

[alexiskilgannon]

Firstly, you touched on a bunch of issues that the game industry is doing our failing to do. Not being able to sell a used game to your friends doesn't take money out of the developer's pocket because they've already made the money off of that disc. If I sold a Ford truck to my friend, Ford already has their money from that original car sale. It isn't hurting anyone that I sold something second hand.

Let's get rid of day one DLC, releasing a game before it's finished- The only way we can change major developers business ethics is by protesting with your dollar. If you don't like what they're doing, don't buy their crappy games- EA I'm looking at you. >.>

 

[Ridge]

Firstly, you touched on a bunch of issues that the game industry is doing our failing to do. Not being able to sell a used game to your friends doesn't take money out of the developer's pocket because they've already made the money off of that disc. If I sold a Ford truck to my friend, Ford already has their money from that original car sale. It isn't hurting anyone that I sold something second hand.

I touched on the car example last page. Long story short the industries work too differently for this comparison to be made.

 

[sparkblade14]

Would it have really went down? When the PlayStation 4 cost $100 less than the Xbox One and both allowed used games the PS4 jumped ahead. If both didn't allow used games Sony presumably would have still had the upper hand if it cost $100 less.

We don't know that for sure since it's just speculation at this point. But the used games policy was one of the biggest factors PS4 is winning this gen. It's the reason why Xbox said "Nope, jk you can use used games after all" Microsoft reversed their used games policy BEFORE dropping the XB1's price. That right there shows you which they prioritized more.

Games are cheaper now then they have ever been. Many SNES games were $69.99 or more; before inflation. Those games also couldn't do things our games today do, like go online, or have a physics engine, or have a polygon. Plus that is just for new AAA games, we have so many other options that still allow you to support a developer when you buy a game. PS+ sales are ridiculous. The sales, I'm not even talking about the free games. Plus things like Humble Bundles are almost stealing. You only get nickel and dime'd if you choose to. You don't have to buy the best edition of a game, or buy something the day it comes out, you choose to.

I'm assuming we're talking about console gaming here. Console gaming is extremely expensive. Remember when new releases were $10-20 cheaper? And no, I'm not choosing to get nickel and dime'd. Have you played Forza 5 for XB1 or 2K14? They have ridiculous microtransactions that are stupid. Devs are starting to lock certain content to consumers because they wanna put it under "DLC" content or as microtransactions. Devs worked on BF4's expansion before fixing their broken game. Humble Bundles and Steam Sales apply mostly to PC gaming. It's why the PC masterrace people always rub it in our faces. Hell, I'm playing L4D2 cause I got it for free this past Christmas from Steam. It's still $25 for the damn 360.


GTA is the extreme side of the spectrum. What about the massive layoffs we read about every other weak? What about when THQ was picked apart a year or two ago? Hell, even Nintendo is losing money..

Not that extreme. Games are quickly becoming more lucrative than movies. Massive layoffs happen in EVERY industry. The studio in charge of Avatar's special effects no longer exist. Also, Nintendo is losing money cause the Wii U sucks. They even admitted it's a failure

Responses in bold.

 

[Ridge]

We don't know that for sure since it's just speculation at this point. But the used games policy was one of the biggest factors PS4 is winning this gen. It's the reason why Xbox said "Nope, jk you can use used games after all" Microsoft reversed their used games policy BEFORE dropping the XB1's price. That right there shows you which they prioritized more.

How is a used games policy that went away months before a console came out one of the biggest factors deciding this gen?

I'm assuming we're talking about console gaming here. Console gaming is extremely expensive. Remember when new releases were $10-20 cheaper? And no, I'm not choosing to get nickel and dime'd. Have you played Forza 5 for XB1 or 2K14? They have ridiculous microtransactions that are stupid. Devs are starting to lock certain content to consumers because they wanna put it under "DLC" content or as microtransactions. Devs worked on BF4's expansion before fixing their broken game.

Console gaming is cheaper than it's ever been, especially if you consider things like inflation. There were also SNES games that retailed for $69.99 and up, in 90's money. You also don't have to buy DLC or microtransactions.

 

[FonterelliD]

Its crazy... It feels like the the price point has always been 69.99 for a new game

 

[FonterelliD]

Have you ever used a game trading site like swapfu or goozex? I think goozex is gone now but i setup a profile on swapfu... its Free which is pretty awesome.

I always buy used games. I like to save money where I can and as long as the game works it's good enough for me. I can see your point. You want to support the ones who actually create the game and that makes sense. I do buy new games as well, so I support them also.

MY preference is definitely to go with used games. The only thing is you don't get activation codes when you go used. Gotta sacrifice somewhere though. That's how it works.

 

[FonterelliD]

I believe that ultimately games are going to be super cheap and every little feature will cost $. Not like a freemium model but close.

 

[sparkblade14]

How is a used games policy that went away months before a console came out one of the biggest factors deciding this gen?
Because Sony crapped on MS during last year's E3? And so it led to higher preorder sales because used games have been around since forever? So MS pulled back since their preorder sales got dumped by gamers and they got a bad perception. They're still trying to recover from it with the price drop and not requiring Kinect.

See, there's that thing money again. People want to save their hard-earned money and used games allow you to do that. It's not like you get an inferior experience by buying used anyway. It's literally the same as a new game.

Console gaming is cheaper than it's ever been, especially if you consider things like inflation. There were also SNES games that retailed for $69.99 and up, in 90's money.
Agree. Games back then were expensive as crap.
You also don't have to buy DLC or microtransactions.
See that's the thing. Have you played Forza or 2K? If you haven't, then you'll see what I'm getting at with microtransactions in full priced games. It's literally "Hey, pay to use this car. Pay to use this menu. Pay to adjust your starting lineup." These affect the game mechanics in HUGE ways. Wanna know why free to play games like LoL, Candy Crush, DotA 2, and others are the big money makers? Hint: It's not exactly "free". I think DotA and LoL do the whole microtransaction thing well though. It's just crap like these that irk me: http://i.imgur.com/EyTPO1F.jpg
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72805000/jpg/_72805763_dkeeper.jpg

Responses in bold.

 

[Ridge]

Because Sony crapped on MS during last year's E3? And so it led to higher preorder sales because used games have been around since forever?

This is actually 100% a legit point, in a thread I feel didn't have many +rep for you.

See, there's that thing money again. People want to save their hard-earned money and used games allow you to do that. It's not like you get an inferior experience by buying used anyway. It's literally the same as a new game.

Exactly, the experience is exactly the same, the second person should have to pay to access that experience. The disc is a ticket to the experience.

Agree. Games back then were expensive as crap.

"Things are better now than they used to be, but I want better!" This isn't a great arguement..

See that's the thing. Have you played Forza or 2K? If you haven't, then you'll see what I'm getting at with microtransactions in full priced games. It's literally "Hey, pay to use this car. Pay to use this menu. Pay to adjust your starting lineup." These affect the game mechanics in HUGE ways. Wanna know why free to play games like LoL, Candy Crush, DotA 2, and others are the big money makers? Hint: It's not exactly "free". I think DotA and LoL do the whole microtransaction thing well though. It's just crap like these that irk me: http://i.imgur.com/EyTPO1F.jpg
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...63_dkeeper.jpg

If you are upset because people who are willing to spend more money will get better stuff in games I've got some devastating things to explain to you about real life.

Responses in bold.

I could teach you how to internet if you want...send me a PM.

 

[FonterelliD]

Im telling you guys.... In game purchases, although annoying is going to be the norm from now on. It will give people with $$ (actually people who want to spend $$) additional experiences. I hope that developers are careful not to require add-ons for gamers to remain relevant during gameplay (new skins as opposed to higher damage, etc). If they dont it will give noobs an advantage just because they have moms credit card attached to their account.

 

[sparkblade14]

Exactly, the experience is exactly the same, the second person should have to pay to access that experience. The disc is a ticket to the experience.
Why? Why start now? Why didn't we start charging for this "experience" ever since used games have been around?

"Things are better now than they used to be, but I want better!" This isn't a great arguement..
Huh? I just said I agreed with your point. Not arguing anything.


If you are upset because people who are willing to spend more money will get better stuff in games I've got some devastating things to explain to you about real life.
Did you even read my post? It's not the fact that people are getting better stuff by dishing out money. I don't care about that. It's the RESTRICTIONS that devs are enforcing. It's affecting the actual gameplay and gameplay mechanics. Locking content is retarded.

I could teach you how to internet if you want...send me a PM.
Too lazy to multiquote. Been doing the bold thing for years.

10characters

 

[Cpt Blackadder]

It seems like the common point in all posts above for used games is "not everyone can afford a new game" so I'll ask you guys a question.

Do you agree with pirating games? Or any sort of content really? Obviously not, piracy is nothing but stealing content. Well guess what? A video game developer/publisher sees just as much money when you buy a used game as when you straight up steal a game. So of course this is the kind of thing they will want to get rid of. You just feel better about it because you are giving SOMEBODY money..

Also gaming isn't a right, nobody is entitled to play the newest AAA games. There are free PS+ games, humble bundles, sales; several ways to buy games and still support the people who made the content you are enjoying.

Haven't read through all your thoughts just yet, i stopped at these 2.

Re used games, the ONLY way it would be palettable to the consumers would be if each game was fantastic. The fact that some games just aren't as advertized ( cough cough Aliens Colonial Marines cough cough ) destroys any trust the developers would have with the consumers. So many games have DLC which is nothing more than the Dev, leaving out the last chapter of a game to sell it as DLC later. Micro transactions that unbalance fair game play.

All these things build up to a lack of trust from the consumer, and the developers IMO have only themselves to blame for putting themselves in this position.

Back in the day ( Rainbow 6 Vegas 2 ) developers gave us FREE DLC maps as a thank you for supporting their product.

If they got themselves BACK to that model, then we could start thinking about abandoning used games.

Also though, i suspect your looking at used games from the point of someone who has a decent income. What about those that don't ?

As for your comment re piracy being the same as used games, that's taking it to the extreme, but then look at it this way. The used game market is providing jobs and industry with stores like Gamestop, GAME, CEX, and therefore encouraging traffic into those stores to then buy brand new items/consoles/games.

Take the used game stores out the highstreet, would be the death of the gaming industry as there would be no exposure or place to buy new stuff in your hand.

Used games to stay forever IMO.

 

[Ridge]

Why? Why start now? Why didn't we start charging for this "experience" ever since used games have been around?

I imagine in the old days there wasn’t a cost effective way to enforce it. How would you possibly do that on a SNES game? But now with everyone being online it is super easy to enforce. Also we all are more used to the idea of an experience instead of a product. We don’t have any products on our phones, none of our digital games are products, just licenses to play the experience.

Did you even read my post? It's not the fact that people are getting better stuff by dishing out money. I don't care about that. It's the RESTRICTIONS that devs are enforcing. It's affecting the actual gameplay and gameplay mechanics. Locking content is retarded.

Devs can lock out whatever they want. If you don’t like it you don’t have to support their product. You bought those games because you wanted to play them, and they decided how much of the experience you are entitled to for your purchase. Boycott if you don’t like it.

Too lazy to multiquote. Been doing the bold thing for years.

I can respect that, carry on.

Re used games, the ONLY way it would be palettable to the consumers would be if each game was fantastic. The fact that some games just aren't as advertised ( cough cough Aliens Colonial Marines cough cough ) destroys any trust the developers would have with the consumers.

There isn’t an single industry where everything is what the people who made it make it out to be..

So many games have DLC which is nothing more than the Dev, leaving out the last chapter of a game to sell it as DLC later. Micro transactions that unbalance fair game play.
All these things build up to a lack of trust from the consumer, and the developers IMO have only themselves to blame for putting themselves in this position.
Back in the day ( Rainbow 6 Vegas 2 ) developers gave us FREE DLC maps as a thank you for supporting their product.
If they got themselves BACK to that model, then we could start thinking about abandoning used games.

Most of my DLC and micro transaction thoughts are just a little above, some in this post.. That’ll do for now.

Also though, i suspect you’re looking at used games from the point of someone who has a decent income. What about those that don’t?

There are a lot of things people are entitled to if they can’t afford them. Gaming isn’t one of them. Also gaming is cheaper than ever, there is stuff in whatever price range people can manage. People aren’t just entitled to AAA new releases because they want them. You can wait for a sale, or just play Candy Crush if that’s all you can afford.

As for your comment re piracy being the same as used games, that's taking it to the extreme, but then look at it this way. The used game market is providing jobs and industry with stores like Gamestop, GAME, CEX, and therefore encouraging traffic into those stores to then buy brand new items/consoles/games.
Take the used game stores out the highstreet, would be the death of the gaming industry as there would be no exposure or place to buy new stuff in your hand.

The people who makes games see just as much money whether you pirate their game or buy it used. What’s the difference? Just because you gave somebody money you feel better about it?
I would much rather my money go to the people who made my games than the kid working at Gamestop for minimum wage+ lanyards. They can always go work at Mcdonalds for minimum wage without lanyards. Also I think the industry will be fine without dedicated game stores. Bestbuy, Walmart,Target etc.. all will still have games.

 

[The Unlosing Ranger]

A lot of people seem to dislike the microtransactions but I personally think that, as long as they're done well, they're not too big a problem. A good way to do them is make it so buying things makes it easier for the player but is not needed to be able to progress or be competitive at the game. Then, the microtransactions would be for those that don't have time or just want things fast while as everyone else could just obtain the things through regular play. It's only a problem when they're obnoxious to the point in which you are unable to play at all without spending more money.

Regardless, microtransactions are there not only to try to get some money from people that buy used games but also to milk a bit more from those that buy full price. There's also the pre-order bonuses which almost every game has nowadays that are also there to incentivise people to buy new instead of buying used. The thing is that consumers are always looking for cheaper deals. Maybe it would help to do sales like on PC, where many games can be pre-ordered at discounted prices, which is funny since PC doesn't have to worry about used games. Something similar should be adopted for consoles games, official discounts would probably put a dent on used game sales.